is CB a car without wheels?

14 years 7 months ago #5294 by mikko
My answers to a and b:
-to me it seems that the current feature set is exaectly what is needed to the core functionality, editing, displaying and listing profiles. To form a community, it is much more important to integrate forums, picture sharing, etc. That is, the current set of features is sufficient for the basic use. None of my sites is in need of search (in addition to the backend search I mentioned)

It is not a database product but a product which gives profiles to the users of Joomla. And then again, there are several hacks that enable you to do searches.

The point is: given the scarce resources, the developers are first doing the things that they see important, that is listing, showing and editing profiles. There is no point in making search if it means that one of the core functions would not be pcreated. Given more resources, search is propably something that will appear.

The fields are really usefull even without search. For example in this community, I like to check the profiles of people who post here to see what their experience level is. I have never, not a one single time, had need to search for anyone here.

Software is not created directly because of users. The current state of the understanding of software and other work of creative effort is that these three things motivate creating of software:
* Money
* Creative fulfillment
* Social-psychological rewards

Users come only through proxies of money and social-psychological rewards. If you consider the latter, the questioning of the value of the current state of this component does not increase it. The only occasion where user matters directly is when the user and the developer are the same person. Otherwise there needs to be some kind of proxy, i.e. money or appreciation.

What is your motivation to keep your sites? If you get paid for that, why would you start a fundraiser to hire someone to code search for you and donate the code here?

If you want to know more about motivation in software development, I recommend that you read this seminal article: www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.html

What comes to your (irrelevant) point about Microsoft, I can confidently state that you are wrong. You can verify this for example reading a book called "Microsoft Secrets".

-Mikko

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14 years 7 months ago #5295 by mikko
To put is a bit more offensively, why would I care what you need? Why would anyone else care what some other user wants?

-Mikko

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14 years 7 months ago #5314 by achintya
Well that's very nice of you... I think we are coming from two different directions here... there is the software development area and there is the website designer/agency area.

As a website designer/agency I am 'serving' my clients, the end users, they are not doing me a favour. To use a well worn phrase, I am 'delighting' them as much as I can. This means meeting their needs.

So there is no question about not caring, I have to care very much for them, or I lose their custom and the business.

If many of my clients are saying 'why can't we search the CB fields except for name' I have to try and explain. And I find it quite hard to do this as there seems no logical explanation I can think of. It seems such an obvious function, an such an obvious ommission from the software.

Anyway, I will wait and see what CB come up with next, and hopefully it will include this much needed search utility. Then it will be a truly very good piece of software.


achintya


mikko wrote:

To put is a bit more offensively, why would I care what you need? Why would anyone else care what some other user wants?

-Mikko

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14 years 7 months ago #5315 by mikko
Yes, indeed two different directions. The problem is that you have the customers and for example I have skills to program. The logic in programming or doing any other work is that you do something and you get something. That is people here make code, you get code here, make it a site and deliver to your customer. Your client gives something good to (money, respect, et) you and then you complain here. You propably get the point why it is really hard to do opensource based on customer requirements?

Which part of my explanation was not logical?

Many open source developers program for their own need and release just because releasing does not cost you anything and you might get a bit of respect by doing it. When you personally do not need extensive search, then there is understandably lack of motivation to program it. Doesn't that make sense?

The search will most likely come to the core at some point of time.

-mikko

I am not a member of the core team, just did a few plugins that I needed and published them.

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14 years 7 months ago #5316 by achintya
It is good to feel a mutual understanding. First of all, I am not really 'complaining' but wanting to explore exactly the issues you are talking about.

Just as you are trying to explain to me the world of software programmers and how you release and develop things, I am also trying to explain to you the world of the website designer/agency who is trying to serve and delight clients.

It seems to me very important that each of us have a deep understanding of eachother's worlds and needs, if the resulting software is to be satisfying and useful to one another?

It is like a food chain as you describe it, all of us feeding of eachother for money, success, recognition and reward - hopefully for a mutual wish to build community also?

From my side, I and quite a few others can't see why the search functionality is missing from this software, and this is re-emphasised because for quite a few of us in these forums we are at the other end of the customer chain.

From your side, you are saying that for the developer if he or she doesn't personally have the need for searching then why programme it? That it isn't seen as an important aspect of the software.

This seems one sided and quite illogical from my side because without us, the users and without our customers, then no-one would be using the software at all, so surely software development MUST take our needs and our customer's needs into account?

If software developers are only in it for the production of a heap of code that has no bugs and doesn't fall over, and that was it - then the resulting software cannot be called a public utility, whether open source or commercial?

Is CB a public utility or a means for software developers to produce something that is bug free and not falling over so they can feel a sense of achievement, is that all it is?

I am pretty sure the answer would be no, to this. I really hope so. That you do care for your 'customers' - and if this is the case, then how about the software developers listening to the need for a good search tool? Why ignore it month after month, release after release, even though many people are clearly waiting for it?

By the way, where are the non-hacking plugins you are referring to earlier? I can't see any trace of them in either Joomla or Mambo, unless you mean CV extended or User List derivatives, which look horrible.

Enjoying the discourse, thanks for your thoughts.


achintya


mikko wrote:

Yes, indeed two different directions. The problem is that you have the customers and for example I have skills to program. The logic in programming or doing any other work is that you do something and you get something. That is people here make code, you get code here, make it a site and deliver to your customer. Your client gives something good to (money, respect, et) you and then you complain here. You propably get the point why it is really hard to do opensource based on customer requirements?

Which part of my explanation was not logical?

Many open source developers program for their own need and release just because releasing does not cost you anything and you might get a bit of respect by doing it. When you personally do not need extensive search, then there is understandably lack of motivation to program it. Doesn't that make sense?

The search will most likely come to the core at some point of time.

-mikko

I am not a member of the core team, just did a few plugins that I needed and published them.

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14 years 7 months ago #5320 by mikko
The difference is that you have clients, most developers here don't. Let's say taht four things motivate to program: own need, money, respect and creative selfulfilment

And now the thing
1) If any of the core members would need search, it would be available
2) Money does not flow much here
3) Search is pretty much a backend thing, thus you get more respect by releasing bits and pieces and having some hype. (see trails karma)
4) There is nothing creative about building search, just plain programing that has been done thousands of times before

Furthermore, search is quite a bit of code to make as a standalon (not hack) and thus taking this endeavour is not as tempting as doing little things. For the core members, the bugfixing is natural, because there are a lot of them and peolel need support when they encounter these things.

Everything clear this far?

The problem with the community thing is that peripheral members (i.e) members with little activity, do not really make the value in social point of view of community. That is, the feeling of the most active members is what counts more and if people want to make nice looking tabs insted, then that it is.

Furthermore, your community is a lot diferent and not connected to this one, so it is natura that there is little value that it would add here.

And in a way you are wrong in your statement that people must take care of the end users. You need to distinquish between active members and freeriders in all projects/communities. I have no idea why this component was initially built. Maybe because joomlajoe at the time needed a component like this.

The reason for me to program here is that I need the features that I have contributed, I am getting paid for one little feature and then I would like to see my code to live and maybe get a few thank yous. Furthermore, I like the intellectual challenge of programming something that is considered hard.

You must be referring to public good in your post, that is something that is none rivalrous and non excludable. This ie exactly what GPL licensing is for. Anyone can use it and if I use it it does not hurt you at all. Doesn't it seem rational to you that the people who control this public good steer it to the way that they require?

If any serious programmer would have needed the search, it would have been programmed. (Propably has too, but not published)

Those are pretty much what I meant. In addition, there is the backend serach by me which could be packaged as a module with minor effort.

-mikko







-mikko

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