is CB a car without wheels?

14 years 8 months ago #5321 by achintya
Of course I am with you... I am getting a clear picture of the OPen Source programmer's world from you.

I am also getting a clear picture of an enormous gap in communication and understanding between the CB programmers and the end users (ie Mambo/Joomla registered users all over the world).

It concerns me that you say "your community is a lot diferent and not connected to this one, so it is natura that there is little value that it would add here." because my community ARE those people who have to use the results of all the programming. Without them, what is the point? Surely the programmers are SERVING my community of users by giving them what they want, not want the programmers want?

To go back to the car analogy, it would be like a lot of factory workers in a car factory building a car for just themselves and not caring whether actual drivers could really use it on the roads they drive up and down every day?

This is the picture I am getting?

What I am saying is that 'my community' of users, which must be similar to many Mambo/Joomla communities, need to find other registered users by searching for them on all the fields that the software provides them to fill in.

What is the point of allowing 400 people to say what town they work in, and not provide a means for finding out who works in certain towns? That is totally illogical design.

You ask me a little pertinently if everything is clear so far, and I have to ask you the same thing because I am not sure it is clear to you what I am saying?

I think we do have to mutually understand where we are coming from here. I think I have got your picture, but I am not sure you have got mine.

If you were standing here right now, I would want to ask you to repeat everything I have just said, to check for myself that you have heard me?

Can you tell me your understanding of what I have just said, in your own words Mikko?

thanks


achintya



mikko wrote:

The difference is that you have clients, most developers here don't. Let's say taht four things motivate to program: own need, money, respect and creative selfulfilment

And now the thing
1) If any of the core members would need search, it would be available
2) Money does not flow much here
3) Search is pretty much a backend thing, thus you get more respect by releasing bits and pieces and having some hype. (see trails karma)
4) There is nothing creative about building search, just plain programing that has been done thousands of times before

Furthermore, search is quite a bit of code to make as a standalon (not hack) and thus taking this endeavour is not as tempting as doing little things. For the core members, the bugfixing is natural, because there are a lot of them and peolel need support when they encounter these things.

Everything clear this far?

The problem with the community thing is that peripheral members (i.e) members with little activity, do not really make the value in social point of view of community. That is, the feeling of the most active members is what counts more and if people want to make nice looking tabs insted, then that it is.

Furthermore, your community is a lot diferent and not connected to this one, so it is natura that there is little value that it would add here.

And in a way you are wrong in your statement that people must take care of the end users. You need to distinquish between active members and freeriders in all projects/communities. I have no idea why this component was initially built. Maybe because joomlajoe at the time needed a component like this.

The reason for me to program here is that I need the features that I have contributed, I am getting paid for one little feature and then I would like to see my code to live and maybe get a few thank yous. Furthermore, I like the intellectual challenge of programming something that is considered hard.

You must be referring to public good in your post, that is something that is none rivalrous and non excludable. This ie exactly what GPL licensing is for. Anyone can use it and if I use it it does not hurt you at all. Doesn't it seem rational to you that the people who control this public good steer it to the way that they require?

If any serious programmer would have needed the search, it would have been programmed. (Propably has too, but not published)

Those are pretty much what I meant. In addition, there is the backend serach by me which could be packaged as a module with minor effort.

-mikko







-mikko

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14 years 8 months ago #5322 by mikko
I will reply this later tonight. Some real life things to do at this point of time.

-Mikko

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14 years 8 months ago #5324 by geeffland
As a user and 3PD developer here are a few thoughts to add

1) Many components and modules for Joomla do not require hacks... None of the components I have installed currently require such hacks... Community Builder, Ext Calendar, Z Weather, JoomlaXplorer are just a few.

2) My CB plugin also requires no CB hacks... phpBB Connector. It is freely available in the Downloads area under BETA. The only hack it has is to fix a bug in phpBB.

3) The main use of CB for me is as other have stated... modify registration by adding extra fields and for the personal profile views.

4) One thing to think about before doing search on all of the profile fields is that some you won't want to be able to search for Credit Card numbers, addresses, phone numbers, etc. are just a few items that users may not want shown let alone searchable. So for this to work well it also needs to foundation work so that the users have control over which items in their profiles are searchable along with some admin control over the whole process... so it does seem like quite a bit of work. At least if you want it done correctly.

5) The plugin architecture that CB released in RC2 is phenominal and I for one am glad that they decided to work on that prior to adding search.

6) Search for fields will come... it is just a matter of priority. CB is not missing a wheel as you have stated numerous times... probably more like missing a radio... You can drive without the radio... but if the engine (CB Core w/o errors) is bad then it doesn't matter what extras you add. You can have some really nice wheels on a car that won't drive

:)

CB3PD Developer - CB Connector (formerly phpBB Connector) plugin

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14 years 8 months ago #5325 by achintya
Hi

I think it is a wheel missing, not a radio. You have picked me up for repetition, so I won't say what I have said in others posts to emphasise it is END USERS who determine what is missing or not missing. If many users and forum members are saying that search is sorely missed, doesn't this need taking seriously?

An unsearchable database of registered users IS missing a wheel! It is like a car without a steering wheel, without wheels, not a 'nice to have thing' like a radio.


achintya

geeffland wrote:

As a user and 3PD developer here are a few thoughts to add

1) Many components and modules for Joomla do not require hacks... None of the components I have installed currently require such hacks... Community Builder, Ext Calendar, Z Weather, JoomlaXplorer are just a few.

2) My CB plugin also requires no CB hacks... phpBB Connector. It is freely available in the Downloads area under BETA. The only hack it has is to fix a bug in phpBB.

3) The main use of CB for me is as other have stated... modify registration by adding extra fields and for the personal profile views.

4) One thing to think about before doing search on all of the profile fields is that some you won't want to be able to search for Credit Card numbers, addresses, phone numbers, etc. are just a few items that users may not want shown let alone searchable. So for this to work well it also needs to foundation work so that the users have control over which items in their profiles are searchable along with some admin control over the whole process... so it does seem like quite a bit of work. At least if you want it done correctly.

5) The plugin architecture that CB released in RC2 is phenominal and I for one am glad that they decided to work on that prior to adding search.

6) Search for fields will come... it is just a matter of priority. CB is not missing a wheel as you have stated numerous times... probably more like missing a radio... You can drive without the radio... but if the engine (CB Core w/o errors) is bad then it doesn't matter what extras you add. You can have some really nice wheels on a car that won't drive

:)

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14 years 8 months ago #5326 by dsendecki
I guess it's a matter of opinion.

To further the analogy -- why don't you just hire a mechanic to fix your "wheels"?

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14 years 8 months ago #5332 by nant
Wow - very heated debate going on here.
I have been following it trying to with-hold participation in order to get more work done on 1.0 stable ... just couldn't resist ... so here is goes...

I understand achintya's frustration about the advanced search capabilities - it will certainly add to the overall functionality and completeness of the OS product suite. Having said this is is the Core Team's position that this is the next major feature that must be implemented (after 1.0 stable).

Having said this a dont agree with achintya's analogies - very simplistic and misleading.

For example:

I have been using CB without a proper search component for about a year or so ...


followed by

a. Why release ANY database software which only allows searching on just one of the core fields in that database, ie name? This is, to my mind, like producing a car without wheels?


one could be led to believe that achintya has been driving around for one year without wheels.

Seriously, CB is not a car without wheels. Something had to be created to allow the information to get into the database in the first place (new fields, field types, etc). Something else had to be created to allow information to be extracted from the database (profile displays) and organized in a descent manor (tabs, templates, etc). Also before an advanced search is created simple things must be in place, for example simple searching by scrolling through a linkable profile list (CB lists). Granted that for large sites this is not efficient - but before running one has to be able to walk. And lets assume you do find someone from any existing search mechanism - you must connect to him (connection plugin).

Just by reading these forums, one can easily see that there is no way on earth CB (or any other product) could satisfy all end-user individual needs. The plugin framework was created to allow some of these less core features to be easily (well it does need programming skills) without compromising core code (by hacking) and ensuring the actual feature survivability after the next core release. I personally and very excited at the 3PD that have been coding away creating plugins to satisfy their needs (whatever they may be) and I hope that at some point people will start paying them to create the plugins and extensions needed. Yes paying them. Why not? The engine might be free but the accessories are not.

Enough with the analogies. I have to get back to spending my little spare time to fine-tune the engine of this free car and update the owners manual B) .

I might not have time to respond to this thread anytime soon again so dont feel that I am ignoring you guys - just trying to spend my time as productively as possible.

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